tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post450603726730810932..comments2008-04-02T13:50:44.877-05:00Derek Vreelandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06278564226756132082noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-16668027564049094372008-04-02T13:50:00.000-05:002008-04-02T13:50:00.000-05:00I found your post while googling "Over realized eschatology" for a message in am preparing for this weekend. Great stuff! I am a pastor with the Assemblies of God, and I wrestle with many of these issues. <BR/>I consider myself a Christian first and foremost -- and find myself embarrassed by many of the excesses of "Pentecost". <BR/>Thanks for what you are doing in your blog and your church! I will be back!<BR/>Brent -- Oak Harbor WApbs17http://www.blogger.com/profile/03144427285113199616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-31102856098245813742008-01-18T13:56:00.000-05:002008-01-18T13:56:00.000-05:00This was an excellent post.Santoshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11629199141020942227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-18508928001621140202008-01-17T09:29:00.000-05:002008-01-17T09:29:00.000-05:00Shane,<BR/><BR/>You know I think you are right. I can only talk about my "tribe" from real experience, but if I am looking from the outside in -- I think you are right. It does seem that MANY evangelical denominations can adopt these subculture-ish traits. <BR/><BR/>I haven't read Mark Noll's <EM>Scandal of the Evangelical Mind</EM>, but I think I heard people saying that he may be hinting at the same thing.<BR/><BR/>These may be sub-culture expressions throughout evangelicalism. The P/c movement is just one expression of that ism.<BR/><BR/>Good thoughts!<BR/><BR/>DerekDerek Vreelandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06278564226756132082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-19986469722271922162008-01-16T23:51:00.000-05:002008-01-16T23:51:00.000-05:00Derek,<BR/><BR/>Just a quick comment here -- I believe these eight points could describe almost every denomination and sect of Christianity in one way or another.<BR/><BR/>Anti-Intellectual - most would not want their adherents questioning their most adhered too doctrines -- and while each having their "scholars", they would not promote scholarly thinking among believers per se'.<BR/><BR/>Hyper-emotional - while this one is more exclusively Pentecostal/charismatic -- I beleive the seeker-sensitive model is rapidly changing that.<BR/><BR/>Ahistorical - almost all (with the exception of Calvinists and Catholics) reject church history as of viable importance. Most keep to only their denominational history and miss out on so much.<BR/><BR/>Spiritual-elitism - which denomination/sect doesn't believe they are the best? (I would suppose that anyone belonging to a particular group of believers would do so b/c they believed them to be the best). <BR/><BR/>Selective hermeneutic - thus, we have doctrinal papers -- once again -- with each having their own specialized denominational (or "non") emphasis.<BR/><BR/>Pragmatic spirituality - a truth that has always been the case in the church -- even in our efforts to back off we becoe pragmatic in our spirituality -- therefore we blog...<BR/><BR/>Cultural disdain - a problem of the church at large since almost the very beginning...<BR/><BR/>Over-realized eschatology - I hear what you're saying here - but not exclusively a Pentecostal/charismatic problem. I would interject -- eschatology (what I think on the end of things) is a biblical concept (however one may be slanted in their thinking) -- and that "over realized" is somewhat of an "over-relative" statement. <BR/><BR/>Very interesting "conversation" -- thanks for the post -- may God bless.<BR/><BR/>p.s. went a little longer than expected - sorry.OPMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16892682137266936445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-62859822902082718222008-01-13T20:47:00.000-05:002008-01-13T20:47:00.000-05:00BZ & PZ -- Welcome to the comment line!<BR/><BR/>Brian, thanks for the commentary. I like the” WOF pamphlet” comment. They don’t have a Bible, they have a pamphlet…HA! Your “five words” – cross, mystery, eclectic community, and revolution – are each pathways in leaving the P/c subculture. <BR/><BR/>My exodus was not something I wanted to do. It was something I had to do. It was my “Maggie’s Farm.”<BR/><BR/><EM>I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more.<BR/>No, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more.<BR/>Well, I try my best<BR/>To be just like I am,<BR/>But everybody wants you<BR/>To be just like them.<BR/>They sing while you slave and I just get bored.<BR/>I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more.</EM><BR/><BR/>Peri, I am always looking for a good book deal. My favorite charismatic book purchase was <EM>101 Reasons Why Christ Returns in 1988</EM>. I bought it for 50 cents in 1996! <BR/><BR/>DerekDerek Vreelandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06278564226756132082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-43655497487244682492008-01-13T20:30:00.000-05:002008-01-13T20:30:00.000-05:00A good read for me, a Christian with a Calvinist background now attending a pentacostal church...I was nodding my head in agreement all the way through -- but I love these people here and the our church community, and as long as this is on the periphery what can be considered the salvation issues, looks like I may be here awhile!Reverenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-51650079187175226882008-01-13T19:47:00.000-05:002008-01-13T19:47:00.000-05:00your list left me feeling embarrassed...but now happy to admit i was embarrassed and glad i don't have to be anymore....<BR/><BR/>hey i have a nice leather bound charismatic concordance which only lists the verses "we" are likely to need. it's quite a bit smaller than the old exhaustive type....i'll sell it to you cheap!periwww.perizahnd.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-56257286969077914872008-01-13T17:37:00.000-05:002008-01-13T17:37:00.000-05:00Excellent!<BR/><BR/>Anti-Intellectual<BR/>Hyper-emotional<BR/>Ahistorical<BR/>Spiritual-elitism<BR/>Selective hermeneutic<BR/>Pragmatic spirituality<BR/>Cultural disdain<BR/>Over-realized eschatology<BR/><BR/>A very good summary of why I had to move on.<BR/><BR/>Anti-intellectual. More than anything else this is what forced me to pack my bags. As Dylan said in "Chronicles", you have to lose your passion for dumbness. The Pentecostal/Charismatic movements just exaggerated a negative trend that was already present in American evangelicalism. Evangelical forerunners like Wesley and Edwards were anything but anti-intellectual -- both of them employed intellectual brilliance in their revivalist labors.<BR/><BR/>Hyper-emotional. The reintroduction of emotion into the uptight, Enlightenment influenced church was a good thing. Let's just make sure we don't end up with the tail wagging the dog.<BR/><BR/>Ahistorical. Eclectic as the third of my "Five Words" has much to do with realizing we have a 2,000 year history -- not a 100 year history. I need Augustine, Aquinas, Assisi.<BR/><BR/>Spiritual elitism. God forgive me.<BR/><BR/>Selective hermeneutic. I said years ago, the Word of Faith movement doesn't have a Bible, is has a pamphlet.<BR/><BR/>Pragmatic spirituality. We need a revival of Christian mysticism (defined as the philosophy and practice of a direct experience with God). If someone says that Christian mysticism is dangerous, I tell them, not as dangerous as Christian pragmatism. MYSTERY!!<BR/><BR/>Cultural disdain. We need to join the human race. We find common ground in our common humanity. Good art needs no further justification than it is good art.<BR/><BR/>Over-realized eschatology. For me, the Charismatic movement has been Left Behind.<BR/><BR/>So I've packed my bags. I packed my bags because there are good things worth keeping. But the Charismatic movement must be a contribution, not a totality.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, good thinking, Derek.<BR/><BR/>Enjoy the journey.<BR/><BR/>BZBrian Zahndhttp://www.brianzahnd.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-50865660917429212272008-01-13T15:46:00.000-05:002008-01-13T15:46:00.000-05:00Yeah it seems that "emerging" may be a passing fad, but it is helpful in describing what this is that I am in on my spiritual journey. <BR/><BR/>It is a sort of post-charismatic stage for me. I like the language of "conversation" in emerging church dialogs. That is what I am doing...questioning the assumptions and values of the P/c subculture. It is jumping on Rob Bell's theological trampoline. <BR/><BR/>I am not trying to be a part of the latest evangelical fad. I am just trying to explain where I am on my spiritual journey.<BR/><BR/>Derek<BR/><BR/>PS I will check out your post on prophecy...Derek Vreelandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06278564226756132082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23758043.post-23653489693459297422008-01-12T23:34:00.000-05:002008-01-12T23:34:00.000-05:00Great post! It is the subculture...I think that distinction is the difference.<BR/><BR/>I think the term "emerging" is dying off, or losing some steam, not because the ideas and content of what is being sorted out is having less interest, far from it, but because of the baggage that goes with the emerging/emergent terms. Heresy hunters, misunderstandings, etc. <BR/><BR/>Really, why would I want to get in a silly argument from someone (who may not understand the issues involved) when I say "emerging", when I can just discuss...say...the differences between an attractional model church and a missional model?<BR/><BR/>Cheers.<BR/><BR/>PS I got a new post about prophecy. I was getting some feedback from BZ about it, and just wondering what you thought?Nathanhttp://nathangann.com/noreply@blogger.com